Circa-Rolla Disc Discrepancies & Comparisons

The Short Version:

Some curious features in some of the disc sizes emerged from a little project I did on comparing disc sizes given on Levenger and Rollabind websites to measurements I discovered made by DIY of actual discs.

The Small Rolla, very accurately DIY measured at 13/32, is quite larger than indicated on the Rollabind website, which they have as only 8/32". The Medium Rolla is quite larger than stated, DIY measured at 19/32", with the website giving just 16/32".

The Standard Circa is also quite larger than stated, with the website saying 16/32" but our DIYer’s measuring 19/32". Circa Jumbo on the other hand, is quite smaller, with DIY measuring 1 11/32" and the website saying 1 16/32".

These differences won’t matter to most people, but if anyone is looking for odd sizes, one of the off-stated discs might fit their needs; or, knowing that some are off described may save disappointment. Map attached below as,
cira_rolla_disc_comparison_map.pdf.

Before I go further, the usual and compulsory preamble: please do let me know quickly if any of the math on the map is wrong and of any other corrections and misunderstandings and missing information and I will inform the cat, including if you think this whole thing is a bunch of baloney.

First have a look at the wonderful chart shris made,
http://diyplanner.com/files/Rolla%20Circa%20Sizes.pdf
I only found this after I had done my comparison chart! This beautiful simple chart is so useful, wish there was a side category to keep things like this easy and quick to find. The original thread by shris and rlaundy I found is here, http://diyplanner.com/node/2154.

Their measurements were made February, 2007 so it is possible that disc sizes may have changed since then. It seems unlikely as it would have meant expensive retooling in the manufacture process but keep it in mind. Perhaps there would sometimes be necessary change in dies or equipment, or changes if outsourcing. Those interested may want to measure some newly received discs as a cross check.

Both companies use the same 60 lb. paper and the paper and rings are interchangeable. Comparisons were based on 1" = 32/32, using an ordinary ruler.

The Long Version:

A while ago I ordered Large Rolla discs and they were not what I had expected. They were about the same size as the Circa Standard I had. This happened simply because I did not read the website descriptions - boffo - and just in a mindset that Large Rolla would be same as Large Circa. In weak defense, their descriptions are not the same, as Rollabind gives the number of pages and thickness of the stack, rather than size of the rings; whereas Circa gives size of the rings and a different number of pages. Levenger math on the number of pages doesn’t even work out, as I quicky realized, more on that below.

I made myself a chart so I would have the details and comparisons easily on hand in the future. I love that Rolla has so many colours of rings. Then, I discovered the great thread on diy which gave the actual measurements of real discs which shris and rlaundry /Reese had done last year! As someone new to discs, I had not even clued in until then that all the sizes referred to the inside of the rings, not the outside, oh mudhead of course, since that’s where the paper goes.... I put all that great information into my chart, then measured the discs I have, Circa Medium, Circa Large and Rolla Large, and put those numbers into the chart.

What resulted was a very confusing and unhelpful mash. Shris and rlaundry used decimal inch fractions (100ths); Levenger uses different measurement and description system than Rollabind; and I just had an ordinary steel inch ruler.

What to do? Only one solution for me, convert everything to my ordinary steel ruler, 1" - 32/32. I can’t visualize disc sizes in /100th inch and in any case do not have electronic tools such as calipers. Yes, not as accurate but leave that for others to discuss. It was also easier for me than converting everything to metric as I am an old lady and learned the old Queen’s method. These conversions very quickly done using the very fun Hello Kitty skin on Cloanto Skin Calc (www.skincalc.com).

This leads back to the beginning and “The Short Version” except for one thing. When I was all done, I looked around the DIY site again and found that shris had already made the beautiful comparison chart. She’d mentioned in the thread that she planned to do a graphic but there was no link and I had not come across it in my original search. It is much easier to understand than what I have done and is gives you a quick grasp of all you need to know when you are looking for rings but for these apparent size discrepancies.

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circa roll disc comparison map.pdf1.89 MB
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Rulers

Hi.

You know, I started out with a ruler, trying to measure those dang discs. I rapidly came to the conclusion that my eyeballs are insufficient and the discs likely made to metric measure. The hole punches are--25mm on center.

I actually started out trying to use my draftsman's ruler, with every scale it had, and I ended up with fractions on every scale. Since DH had the electro-gizmo, I decided to let it tell me what was going on.

The thing you don't have here that would help me understand the rounding error is the decimal equivalent of your 32nd measurements. Of course, I can generate these myself with a calculator, but I'm getting old and tired. :)

I expect if we tried measuring in mm, we might get a useful whole number for the diameters of the discs, but I never tried. Durn, coulda done that with the electronic gadget, it's just a push of a button to change scale. :)

Eh, well. I was going to add Myndology to my chart too, but that whole tired thing..

shris

i want more? :(

you said more amount of pages that fit in the rings but those never came :( or did i miss this extra info

---
Levenger stole ALL of my money, but they left me all these nice, shiny organizational tools.

Depends

How many pages depends on the paper thickness.
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"I think the surest sign that there is intelligent life out there in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin and Hobbes/Bill Waterson)

Thank you for your

Thank you for your feedback.

Shris, you had piles and piles of discs you were measuring and electronic calipers were by far the most sensible way to do things! I only had a handful and in any case just perhaps different eyes and didn’t find the ruler a problem. But I was also using inches for a different purpose, it wasn’t to get the accurate measurements like you were. You did the hard work. I just wanted to be able to visualize or “see” the disc sizes in relation to ruler inches. I can mathematically compare with decimal fractions, but I can’t for some reason “see” or visualize the actual physical difference between say .25 and .42 other than to say the latter is smaller. If I say one is 13/32 and the other 8/32, then I can immediately see the difference on the ruler. Talk about measurements needs a separate thread, it can get quite convoluted! Yes, maybe they use metric, have not tried, though they use inches on their websites.

I’m sorry I don’t understand your question,
“rounding error is the decimal equivalent of your 32nd measurements”.

Submitted by Jigglypuff on Mon, 2008-03-31 10:53.
you said more amount of pages that fit in the rings but those never came :( or did i miss this extra info

Jigglypuff, I did not even try to estimate number of pages that the off-sizes might fit. You could estimate Rolla’s based on their 1" = 120 pages but there is no way to figure Circa’s, as mentioned, their math does not work out.

Understanding

Hi.

A restatement, with parenthesis inserted for clarity:

"The thing you don't have here (that would help me understand the rounding error) is the decimal equivalent of your 32nd measurements."

Doesn't really matter, though. Like I said, I can use a calculator myself. :)

On the subject of paper stacks, though, you can't use even the inner diameter of the disc to figure the size of the paper stack you can fit (directly, anyway). You actually have to subtract a small margin on top and bottom due to the curvature of the disc. If you don't believe me, you can try it. Take a set of discs of any size, figure the inner diameter, make a stack of paper that high (when compressed!), and try to fit it all in--as if it were a closed notebook. You can get all the pages on the discs (in two piles on left and right), but you won't get the notebook to close properly--and if you do manage to wiggle them all flat, try turning just the top sheet back over to the other side and see how well that works. The problem is especially apparent on the larger discs.

You won't get the pages to close all the way (and then open again), because the paper can't lay at a tangent to the arc when the holes have to span the rim of the circle and leave a bit of paper on the 'inside' of the rim. Doesn't work--the thickness of the paper and the curvature of the disc are the crux of the issue.. The point at which it ceases to work is a point you can draw on paper, but is difficult to demonstrate in real life until you try to put too many sheets in a notebook. :)

As a rule of thumb, I'm thinking that you can put a stack of paper in the discs that's maybe 2/3 to 3/4 as high as the inner diameter of the disc. I haven't done the geometry to figure out the exact ratio, but something like that's going to offer best page-turning for the utilization. Of course you *can* wedge more paper onto the discs, you just won't have any fun at all opening the book and turning the pages.

shris

ID vs. OD

Actually, I thought that this had been solved before. Aren't the two sites just measuring inner diameter vs. outer diameter? That is, the smaller measure is the actual flat area of the disc inside the lip, and the larger measure is the full edge-to-edge diameter of the disc (including the smurf lip.) Just eyeballing an assortment of (Rolla) discs I have here, I see that the lip is around 1/16" thick. I believe that accounts for the difference in measurements, unless I'm missing something.

My thoughts exactly

I thought the same thing. And I also recall the previous conversation having similar issues. :)

...and here it is:

Here's that other discussion.

http://diyplanner.com/node/2154

I think the only disconnect here is that one brand calls the biggest rings "extra large" and the other calls them "large", with the size difference trickling down (one "large" is another "medium", and so on.) At any rate, they are the same product, with the same dimensions, though folks have reported variations in molding quality. Just as a reminder...

Rolla = Circa
Atoma = Myndology

And anecdotal evidence says that you can interchange papers from one system to another with some degree of success, but obviously not as good as if you stay "in-system."

Off topic question

Which software was used to make the attached map ?
Looks great.
Now back to the program...
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"I think the surest sign that there is intelligent life out there in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin and Hobbes/Bill Waterson)

A Big Question...

I understand WHAT you are talking about.

My question is : Why ?

I mean no offence or anything like that, but I guess I am expecting to find some underlying reason or agenda. It there a specific complaint or is this just for intellectual stimulation ? My brain is feeling excessively fluffy today.
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"I think the surest sign that there is intelligent life out there in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin and Hobbes/Bill Waterson)

Ygor, Come on...

Mr. Find-all-answers. (just kidding!) I believe this probably all came about from the postings under "Myndology arrived! Sweet." Everyone keeps asking if Mynd and Rolla/Atoma/Adoc, and Circa are all compatible.... That is what I got out of this at least...

ciao,
nay nay

Hmmm...

The ranting seems to me to be about Rollabind vs Circa. I see no mention of Mynd/Atoma/Adoc in the original post.
-----------------------------------
"I think the surest sign that there is intelligent life out there in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin and Hobbes/Bill Waterson)

I am now really at a loss.

I am now really at a loss. All this was meant was to share a trivial find that some of the discs sizes indicated on the circa and rolla websites apparently are not actually what they are indicated to be. Shris and rlaundy made the actual measurements so we know what the sizes actually are, not just what the websites say they are.

That’s it, that’s all. This has nothing to do with how much specific paper fits in. If the inner size of the disc is bigger, well you will fit more paper. How many pages wasn’t the purpose of my exploration, that’s also partly a personal preference on how much you like to stuff anyway and if you have dividers and pockets. It wasn’t about types of measurements either, I only felt I had to explain how and why I used the scheme I did. I have read on forums where people have asked about disc sizes and some were interested in sizes not mentioned on the websites, so just thought this might be worth sharing. Maybe it is confusing because I included all the additional information as reference for anyone interested, but you kind of need to include something.

I am sure I could have made it all a lot clearer. Still, I am sorry there has been so much confusion, and especially disappointed that someone thinks there was some kind of “agenda” in this. That seems quite unfair and bad manners for something quite innocently done. Perhaps we can consider this thread now closed.

The map was done with Xmind. This is what I use for planning.

No need to apologise

That is what these forums are all about. If you have something you want to say, then do it.

In this instance, I think you said "it" very well, despite my confusion about the goal, if any, of the dissertation.
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"I think the surest sign that there is intelligent life out there in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin and Hobbes/Bill Waterson)

Don't fret!

I don't think anyone's faulting you for the discussion. I just wanted to make sure that everyone realizes that this has been discussed before, which is non-obvious to newer members due to how the forum software kind of buries old topics, and that aside from quality issues (or perceived quality issues?) the Circa and Rolla products are the *same* thing. Circa is a licensed copy of the Rolla products, IIRC, and Rolla scrapbook punches make 12 smurfs to the Circa 11, due to variable definitions of what a standard sheet of paper may be, though both center on 2.5cm. As far as disc sizing, though, they're the same, it's just difference in what is being measured (inner vs. outer diameter) that leads people astray.